Here’s the first Podcast episode in which I’m going to take a step aside and give space to those who are part of the mixed Asian American community to share their stories. It’s important to keep in mind of the rich diversity of voices within the community of Asian American women representing us. It was a huge privilege to be able to interview Chloe Lin and Hanako O'Leary for this episode, so I'm excited to share their narratives with you. For listeners who can relate to the experiences of my interviewees, I hope that our conversations - especially for this episode - can be a comforting experience for you to be a part of - you are not alone.
Chloe Lin is, among other things, a first-generation, mixed-race, bisexual Asian-American woman. She was raised in the San Gabriel Valley of Los Angeles County by her Taiwanese-Chinese mother, and now resides in Boston, where she works as a guide and museum assistant for various historic sites. She graduated from Smith College in 2016 as a history major and museum studies minor, and is adjusting to Adult Life by reading books of all kinds, cooking with friends, and avoiding learning how to drive. She thanks you for listening to this podcast, and hopes you have a lovely day.
Hanako O’Leary, (aka HannyaGrrrl) is a first generation Japanese-American. Upon receiving her BFA in ceramics, Hanako O'Leary left the mid-west to pursue a career in clay. Settling in Seattle, she became frustrated with the insular, white-washed nature of the the fine art world, struggling to find her voice as a biracial womyn artist. After becoming involved in local cultural nonprofits and community art projects, Hanako decided to pursue her MFA in Arts Leadership. As an arts administrator she believed she could create access into the fine art-world for those who create work outside the canon of Eurocentric aesthetics.
In her two year journey through Seattle University's Arts Leadership program, Hanako realized leadership in the arts was not exclusive to those in administrative positions. In those years she found her voice as an artist, participating in socially engaged public art projects and exhibits throughout Seattle. Currently she is exploring social media as public art space and it’s influence in building community. Recent inspirations/ aspirations include Edo period Japan, comic illustration, intersectional feminism, and of course, smashing the patriarchy.
TRANSCRIBED BY THOA HOANG
JESSICA NGUYEN, HOST: Today’s podcast is brought to you by Audible. Get a free audiobook download and 30-day free trial at audibletrial.com/projectvoice. Over 180,000 titles to choose from for your iPhone, Android, Kindle or MP3 player.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
NGUYEN: Hi! Welcome to Project Voice! This is Jess, and here I have two awesome people. Chloe, someone who I knew from Smith College, and Hanako, someone I knew from Sad Asian Femmes. Actually, we're all part of this really cool Asian female group, Asian femme group called Sad Asian Femmes which was founded by the Sad Asian Girls, which is you know a really cool group in itself. So today, I have the privilege to interview two people who have unique narratives of their own experiences growing up as Asian American, more specifically Mixed Asian American, and definitely a narrative that I can't share, so ha! I look forward to this podcast interview. So I'm gonna have you two introduce yourself first.
CHLOE LIN, INTERVIEWEE: So, Hi, my name is Chloe. I'm from Los Angeles originally, but right now I'm living in Boston. I just graduated from Smith, where I met Jessica. I'm currently working at a bunch of historic sites in Boston. I am a Mixed race Asian American. I’m first generation. My mom is an immigrant from Taiwan, my dad was White, but he's not a part of my life, so he doesn't really figure into my life story or my cultural identity. Other than I am now Mixed race because of him.
HANAKO O’LEARY INTERVIEWEE: I’m Hanako, I live in Seattle. I'm originally from the Chicago suburbs. My mom is Japanese and my dad is White. They are still very much a part of my upbringing and house, so I do definitely feel like 50-50 of both cultures. I haven't really thought too hard about like, what I call myself, or how I identify racially. But I lately have just been using the word Mixed, I guess, when people ask. And if they keep prodding I'll be like, “I'm part Japanese so you know Asian American.” Yeah, and then also I'm an artist! And I have a day job as well, doing administrative things for Seattle Opera.
NGUYEN: Cool! Great to hear where you two are from and where you are now. All of you know me, I guess I don't have to introduce myself here. But where to start? I mean just introducing yourself was a good leeway of showing how there are so many different narratives out there. Interesting that you point [out] how Mixed is... not the only pair of it seems? Like there are other words, too? Are there other synonyms that you identify with?
O’LEARY: I mean, I guess the other words out there is like biracial. Also for Asian-Americans, there's the word “hapa.” Or in Japan, they use the word “hafu” a lot. I think other cultures have different terms that they have for when people are half something else.
NGUYEN: Ahh.
O’LEARY: So yeah, and there's a lot of lingo out there it's an interesting too. Because I just learned recently that, for some Hawaiians they find the “hapa” originally comes from Hawaii and some Hawaiians find the term offensive. Like it was, it was originally a Hawaiian word that was kind of reappropriated by Japanese as they came in, started coming in and like, you know, started buying a property and starting businesses there. S,o I guess there's like some political tension behind that word as well which I didn't know about.
NGUYEN: Oh, I didn’t know that.
O’LEARY: Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to define oneself I think, when you're a bunch of things.
LIN: Like, no one could really say, “Hey, you're biracial” and be like, “I'm offended”... or reacting to me in that way.
O’LEARY: Right, but when you write about yourself or when someone else ask you what your background is what do you…?
LIN: I like "Mixed" because then you can say mixed emotions, mixed feeling. I just like the word mixed. It's more fun. Also, I also like the word biracial, because I’m also bisexual, so I can say I’m biracial, bisexual. All the “bis” in there too.
O’LEARY: Do you find yourself… so you keep it pretty general, right? Because, that's that's how I try to do it. Like I don't really feel it's necessary to explain to someone like specifically where, what, what makes me...
LIN: Like what mix you are?
O’LEARY: Yeah, yeah, ‘cause I think, one of the things that a lot of us, biracial people experience is that people will ask you like, “Oh, where are you from? or “Ehat's your background?” Because you look, you know especially when you're half White, like you look kind of White but you're a little bit not. S,o people are like wait, like how am I supposed to take this in. And so that's a question that I get a lot and, you know I used to just go through the whole explanation, “Oh, my mom's Japanese. My dad's American,” - blah blah blah it was always this like, long story. And then you know later on as I started to get a little bit snarkier, I just be like, “Oh I'm American.” (Laughter). That has its own responses. And then now I have kind of come to just be like, “Oh, I’m Mixed,” and then they usually continue to ask questions like specifically how?
LIN: They get up in your face like, “Hey where you from, what is your your background?” like, “I'm Mixed” is not gonna be good enough not to suffice those questions. So, I work at public historic sites in Boston, which have really heavy foot traffic, especially in the summer, and I found myself getting a lot of those questions, but they are almost always from Chinese people. Upon the fact that I look Chinese slash [at[ one of my jobs, I have a name tag that says in Mandarin - well in Chinese whatever, it says in Chinese, I can speak in Chinese. All these Chinese people looking at me and then really looking at me, like giving me these really long stares like trying to figure out what the hell I am. [O’LEARY LAUGHS] “Are you Chinese? And I’ll be like, “Yeah...” And then there's like a whole barrage of questions. I feel like it's culturally, it's not completely appropriate to them, like mainland Chinese people that ask me about my background. I'll get oh, “And your dad, where's your dad from?” And I'm like, okay it's a little bit awkward you know, I don't know him. I don't want to go through this with you. American, and then I don't bring up anything else ‘cause that's not a conversation I won't have. I wanna talk about Boston history. People ask me and I can only say because they're generally Chinese people who are trying to see if I'm Chinese or not. That's where they are coming from.
O’LEARY: Mm hmm.
NGUYEN: Definitely! That was awesome. Also, I got that on recording, I don't know [if] you guys knew that.
(ALL LAUGH)
NGUYEN: I guess that is a good leeway for our next topic. What are some frustrations or different forms of oppression or issues that you face as a Mixed/biracial Asian American growing up in the States? Whether it is cultural or language barriers or anything really.
LIN: I never really had too many language barriers like the rest of my American classmates. Largely because where I grew up had a lot of other Chinese Americans, and so I felt very comfortable, you know saying things, small things in Chinese to them. But also, I was raised there. I was completely raised in America and I went (through the) American school systems since I was four. Acclimating like that. But I definitely have a problem speaking to my family. Because when I was really young, my Chinese was not good and I was really embarrassed and I would try to say things and then [my family] wouldn't understand what I was saying or I’d use the wrong vocab or they would just correct my grammar constantly. And it’s all this negative feedback that just made me not want to talk around them. And so I definitely don't want to have another very well, even the ones I grew up seeing like on a regular basis for all the big holidays because I just wouldn't speak to them because they didn't understand my English really well. And I just couldn't get across my thoughts in Chinese. Today I make a much bigger effort to speak more Chinese. I practice a lot more so I'm better. But when I was younger, there was a lot of cultural barriers and language barriers because of that with my family, not with other Americans.
O’LEARY: I guess, for me in terms of language, I mean, I went through the American school system as well. I grew up in the States and I would go back to Japan every once in a while to visit my mom's family, but it does become more notice… or every year, it would become more noticeable, like how behind my lang- uh, yes, speaking ability was. And of course you know, for my age, so like the older I got, the dumber I sounded. And that was always frustrating, especially… I don't know if it's a cultural thing; I mean, I think it is partly cultural thing but it's also just my mom's side of the family in general tend to be very prim and proper Japanese people. They would always just bring it up and it was always kind of you could tell, it's sore enough- I mean, I think it was kind of a source of disappointment. They always be like, “Oh, your English is are you Japanese it's so close, you're so close to being able to speak Japanese” and it's like well,l we are speaking Japanese right now so... I can bear, you know. Haha. But yeah it's never quite proper enough or it doesn't fit in with how it should be. It’s kind of how I've always thought in terms of my Japanese language. From the Americans perspective, I don't really deal with any kind of language issues anymore but when I was younger what’s interesting is, I was always going to school and very White school districts... I moved around a lot when I was younger, but there was one time where when I moved, and I spoke English fine. I grew up speaking English so my vocabulary and the ability to communicate was at the same level as any of my other classmates. But when I moved to Illinois, I got pulled aside by a speech therapist because they thought that I had an accent, which I didn't - like at all. And I had to go through some tests to see if I needed to take some extra speech classes. I don’t remember the test, but I just remember me just like saying a lot of words and them recording me and then at the end of it, the woman who tested me was like, “I don't know why you're being tested right now.” Which I didn't… actually, totally forgot about, until this podcast came up and when we talked last week or a few weeks ago. And I was like kind of thinking back on something it's like, oh yeah that was really weird how that happened.
NGUYEN: What! That’s so crazy! So you think it's because how you looked?
O’LEARY: Yeah.
NGUYEN: That people automatically...
O’LEARY: I can't really think of what other reason why. I mean it's yeah [because], I looked I mean definitely compared to the rest of my class I looked more Asian seeing as I was the only remotely Asian person in there. And also, I have a very Asian sounding name, so those are the reasons that I can think of.
NGUYEN: Okay. Wow, that's so messed up! I did not know that. Oh gosh. Yeah, I guess the list could go on, really.
O’LEARY: Yeah, but in terms of, like, in general, you know, the biggest annoyance, at least for me as a Mixed person, is just that I'm always part something, but never all of anything. So, I feel like I'm, you know, I halfway belong, but I'm not like completely accepted as part of the culture or the group. And so, in that way it feels like, really isolating. And even just and I think that ripples into all areas of life including friends, like socially but also hugely like a family dynamic, because I even feel that with you know, my own parents and my siblings feel that, too. In fact, I did say I think it's different for everybody because people have complicated family dynamics, but I have a really awesome relationship of my siblings because we are each other's peeps. Like we're made up of the same thing, you know? So, and we make our own group of people. So, I feel a really strong bond there and that's, right? That's you know, one of the few times when I'm in a group of people, meaning like more than just myself and I feel like, completely comfortable. I belong and I'm understood.
LIN: I was gonna say that kind of spins off of another sort of issue I had growing up. Being Mixed, is like having people telling you don't count.
O’LEARY: Yeah.
LIN: I’ve literally had people tell me that I, “Oh, you don't count for being Asian,” and that confuses me because I was raised by my Asian parents, like I am completely Asian. I just don't look it, but if you look at what I grew up, like how my household look like and everything, like I am Asian! You don't get to tell me that I don't count [because] you don’t know jack shit about me other than I look kind of White to you. I studied abroad in Italy and my second host mother apparently didn't realize I was Asian until I brought up that my grandmother's from China and she's like, “Oh, you're, oh, you're not really Asia; you don't have almond eyes.”
NGUYEN: Ah...
LIN: And I was like, halfway through dinner; I’d be like, stay calm, eat dinner, eat dinner, just get out of this. You are never going to... she’s like 80 years old, so I was like, alright, she's never gonna get it. So, that's so frustrating to hear over and over again. And I really like what you say, Hanako, about having their siblings be your people because they get it, because they're, because they have the same sort of background and they understand like, what issues you deal with. I’m really jealous of that, because I don't have any siblings; it's just my mom and I. My cousin, all three of them were raised in Asia so when I see them, not only they look so drastically different from me and their Cantonese is so much better than mine, and we can't really communicate. I didn't really think about my race as a kid. Not really, I just wasn't super aware of it and my school was very, very… What’s it called? Starts with a D.
O’LEARY: Diverse?
LIN: Diverse, thank you. My school was diverse so I didn’t have to deal with it. By the end of high school and it became an issue, there were a couple of people who were Mixed, who I could take about it with. At Smith, there's actually a group called Multracial Interaction of Smith College, and I would drop in to those meetings and talk to other people. It kind of became more like a… everyone who's Mixed has issues, because I don't think anyone, okay well, not enough parents of Mixed people actually talk to the kids about being Mixed. My mom never said jack shit about being Mixed or how to deal with being Mixed. So, she was just, oh, it's not a problem, and then it is a problem but she [doesn’t] listen to me so... It so- no, it was good to have that space. But otherwise, kind of just you know lonely in my own world, especially here in Boston. I don't know that many Asian people here and not many Mixed race people here.
NGUYEN: You to brought up an interesting point. One how family really can make a big impact on you. Especially the parent-child relationship, like how your relationship to your parents how close you are, how closer to them, how often you communicate with them, because we get a lot of our cultural lessons from them growing up so how you perceive them, how your relationship to them plays a huge role on your identity, your self-identity. And it could break it or make it ,really. Whether or not... Depending on your interactions, and I wanted to know how was it like going up with parents who didn't share the exact same identity as you, as well as your background.
O’LEARY: I think for me because it’s sad because I grew up in such a, you know, a White environment. I guess, yeah, I think I just instinctively just try to be as White as possible, I guess. Because it seemed that it was the only option and it wasn't even something like, I decided consciously. It's like, I'm you know I'm gonna try to be more White it was more just a thing of, you know, this Asian side of me makes me different and it's like something that people like to single me out for so I'm going to try to push it as far back into the background as I can so that people don't really see it and that caused me to act in a lot of ways that I really look back on and feel ashamed about now because it mostly impacted I think my mom the most, because you know, she knows she was the biggest giveaway, basically. Whatever I would invite my friends over to my house, which is rarely I would always like apologize for you know it's smelling like Asian food or laughs off the fact that they had to take their shoes off and things like that. When I was younger, my mom and I had a terrible relationship, and yeah. I mean now I look back on it, I can tell why she was so frustrated and raising us all alone out in the suburbs of Chicago, where you know everybody's White. And yeah. So, definitely, that caused a lot of drifts but our relationship is better now. That's how it impacted me socially- is like I definitely just tried to be as White as possible, pretty much all the way through high school and then in college is when I started to really think, Oh, like that was pretty messed up what I was doing all of these years. And I started to become more aware and I've been working to reverse that.
NGUYEN: Yeah, you mentioned something about, like, when you told your mom that you realized that and then she said something to you?
O’LEARY: Yeah, so when Jessica and I were talking previously. After I started college, I
start interacting more with people of different backgrounds and different ethnicities and different racial identities. And I start to, I started to realize more, and more about basically how our whole country and culture is, is structured off of a White supremacist way of thinking. And that, that Whiteness is oppressive and it's something that even I am impacted by because I'm actually who knew I’m not White. {LAUGHS] And so, I was got really excited like I came back from college on a visit over the holidays I can't or something I don’t remember exactly what it was. But I was telling her about all this stuff they like and how exciting it was about it and then she just had this dumbfounded look on my face and just finally she looked at me and she's like, “I mean, yeah, I know! How do you think I feel in my own house every single day? Like I'm the only minority in my own family.” You know, and then she got really upset and got up and walked away and our conversation is over and I was like sitting with the kitchen table thinking, oh yeah, I guess she's kind of right and then you know from there feeling terrible. But yeah I mean that's the after 18, 19, years. Until I even started to consider what her experience must have been like. So that was, I think one of the biggest moments when I started to really think about how I need to reflect on what it means for me to be a half White person and a half minority and how that has impacted me as a person and how much impact, like how I treat my own family, so.
LIN: It's so funny that’s where your narrative comes from, because as you're talking, I'm thinking about Asian American narratives. Like, there was no one Chinese American narrative, or Vietnamese American, or just any of the many, many, many, many, many ethnicities that make up Asian American. But I think once you throw a Mixed American, Mixed Asian American identities into there, too, the narratives can diversify so much. My point of view is entirely different. Because I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley, which is the first place in the continental U.S. to have more Asian American and Asian than White people. And so if anything growing up, I felt more ashamed of being half White. Because everyone around me was Asian. Like I remembered being really little and walking along. I loved all my friends, and my eyes didn't quite look like their eyes. Not that there is just a thing like Asian eyes, but still, you know I mean, right? I just remember feeling like why don't I look like them? Being upset that I didn't fit that standard that I was mostly seeing around me. And then the older you get, it changes because in America, most of the media that we're exposed to all have White actors and actresses. But when you're really young you're not watching as much media or something the people around you. Further complicated, my mom didn't actually tell me I was Mixed until I was in fourth or fifth grade. I just didn't know my dad and so when she told me, that was very, very upsetting.
O’LEARY: Wooow! That’s crazy.
NGUYEN: Right? Wow.
LIN: I completely thought I was Asian, and all of a sudden, here's my mom saying, so your dad is White BTW. I'm not going to tell you anything more. But he was White and I'm like oh! Thank you! So I had to deal with that and that was pretty bad. It was bad too; it's just really complicated. But at school, people would ask me what I was and my mom tell me that I should not talk about who my father was. And so people would ask me, “Are you Mixed?” And I would just feel so guilty like I gave it away. I gave it away, like I not supposed to know. And they would look, oh my god, they would do things like you should like, look into the Sun. I want to see the color of your eyes, because like, my eyes aren't dark, dark, dark, dark, brown, they're kind of a hazel. So, they didn't really mess up shit to me. I would just go along with it I didn't know any better. But definitely, I felt more like I wanted to fit in with my Asian friends and I felt bad that I stood out for being half White. I didn't quite look like the majority of my friend group. And so instead of having a story where is the other way, where I was ashamed of being... my minority, it was more like a shame that I wasn't full of minority and I wasn't what I look like; it didn’t match my life. Like, it didn't match my grandmother, my cousins, my mom, and the people around me. I just- you would go into a supermarket and there are tons of Asian supermarkets; there people just talk to you in Mandarin because it's kind of assumed that you can speak it. When I go to these places I feel. I'm always like, are the cashiers going to ask me, like are they gonna talk to me in Mandarin? Or are they going to talk to me in English? Like are they gonna assume I’m part of them like everybody else in the store or they're gonna pick up on my outsiderness? So, that's kind of more my story but it's also really rooted in where you grew up like Illinois, I'm sure it's much less diverse it's just at than Southern California.
(LAUGHTER)
O’LEARY: Yeah I mean it’s, it’s, um... It’s just, I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, but that whole area, especially Chicago city, it’s just everything's very segregated. So, I mean even if they're you, you might see people from different ethnic backgrounds walking around on the street, but you wouldn't interact with them. You know, like you don't live in the same neighborhoods, as them you don't go to the same schools as them or you know, go to Church with them, whatever. So, everyone is very like separated from each other and then it wasn't until I moved out to Seattle, which is like, it's still a very White city but it has a really strong Asian American community that's been here forever and so many Mixed people and I'm like woah! Like I actually completely blend in here. But yeah, it is interesting because as a Mixed person your background starts... It's such a dramatic variety of how you find what it is exactly that your mix is, and like how that impacts you; it just affects people really differently.
LIN: I think it's worth throwing out here that both of us are Mixed with White. And
there are plenty of people who are Mixed and are not Mixed with White. Now I'm trying to learn more about my Mixed community, in the last five or six or seven years. Like, it's a complaint that I hear that people who are mixed with not White, dealing with assumptions from people who just assume that they have to be [part] White. Because isn’t it that better? Isn’t that what everyone wants? isn't that the ideal? Isn't that how you get the most exotic but not too exotic? It's mostly that like, I just want to throw out like that I don't personally have to deal with because my other mix is White.
O’LEARY: Right, yeah and I think that's definitely a narrative that we don't get to hear as often. Because you’re right, like every time, I do- now that I am like looking into this stuff and researching more about the Mixed community it is all the stories are from people or mostly, who are half White, and something. Well, recently in Japan, Miss Japan was half Black, half Japanese, and that caused a HUGE uproar in Japan. And I wonder if it would have been that big of a deal if she was half White, half Japanese? Probably not, actually but would have probably been really excited; she would have any more commercials. You know, but yeah so.
LIN: I just want to throw out the same thing happened within the last five years on a Chinese singing show, where one the contestants/maybe a runner-up/maybe the winner/I don't know her name, was half Black and half Asian and half Chinese and she was raised in China. But I read an an interview of her, because I wanted to know more about her. And she was talking about how much shit she gets because she is half Black and that especially in China is, that I think, they don't know how to deal with racial diversity so you know way at least in the way America, you’re accustomed to dealing with. And so that's that's interesting. That's a whole another set of issues that I can't even begin to touch.
O’LEARY: Right, right. Yeah.
NGUYEN: Wow! That's a lot. Do you feel like there's any need of a representation? Like I really wish, again, with every episode, I focus on a specific topic and it seems like the speakers, like I don't want the speakers to be representative of the entire topic. So, it's like this for this episode too, and you know for other episodes. Like whether you are Mixed Asian America or you are part of the 1.5 generation or you’re an Asian-American adoptee, like every-, you know, every identity, every group, has their own wide array of narratives.
O’LEARY: Yeah.
NGUYEN: And it's, it’s difficult. Like, you can dedicate a whole podcast series, not an episode, to this community. And so I hope that there's more talk about this and there's more content being created to represent the voices of your fellow Mixed Asian American friends. And I wanted to know, do you feel like there's a need for representation, or how do you navigate? ?ow do you make sure that your voice is heard? How do you make sure that the voices of your community are heard? I mean, our community is heard? Yeah, in different ways there are different ways to go about this um of course, but yeah, I think we talked about this? But if not, well it's out there now.
(LAUGHTER)
O’LEARY:Yeah, when you asked me that last time, I didn't feel like I necessarily needed to see Mixed race representation in the media. My main thing, concern was that there's not enough representation of Asian Americans in the media organizations or I guess, Asians in general. And when they are represented, it's only, like you know, I can count on one hand the types that I represented, and that's really irritating. So the main thing that I said I wanted to see was more Asians that are playing roles of just regular people that would normally would just be cast to White actors and actresses because they're like, just the default main character. And so, I would like to see more Asians playing roles like that. But I would also take my answer back, and would also like to see characters that are mixed race, and I'd like to see shows, and you know, movies and whatever that are about being mixed race in today's world because you just... .I don’t think I can of anything, any show or movie about being a Mixed race person of any sort. Unless it was like ,it took time and I don't know, like the Civil War era or something, and it was like a super big deal to be a half breed. But I mean it still kind of is a big deal to be half something right now, and it's just a completely different context of how that plays out is completely different story and it would be cool to see that as well.
NGUYEN: Mm hmm.
LIN: I wouldn't wanna fill in that, right now there's such a dearth of Asian American representation in media that I feel it that it also what I would want to see, just because there's not enough of that, would like to see more Mixed race narratives. I think you're right and that I've never seen a movie or TV show that focuses on a Mixed character, At least that I know. I don’t watch that many T.V [shows.] I mostly read books; it is kind of more my thing and out sort of like trying to rack my brain likely to have are there any books with Mixed race protagonists that I've read. There's one book that was written by a White guy and the character wanted to be White despite being half Asian so that was absolutely atrocious example. Do not do that! Don't do that, no! There’s a couple of other novels that I haven't had a chance to meet yet but which are on my to-read list, which have Mixed race characters but it's something that when I think about it now, we don't even have that many representations of Mixed race couples, let alone their children and their children's identity.
O’LEARY: Mm.
LIN: You know the movie Loving only came out last year and it's about in the 60s, an interracial couple, a Black woman and a White man who [got] married and overturn[ed] the laws against racial impurity and mixing in America. That was like, literally you couldn’t get married to someone, you couldn’t legally get marry to someone else out of your race until then. So we're still, we're just trying to have more awareness as a society about this. So, I have very little hope for seeing good Mixed race representation this decade. So, we might as well get some more Asian American actors and actresses out there because that seems to be a train that is starting to move so I might as well hold on to that.
O’LEARY: Yeah, yeah.
NGUYEN: Yeah,and also in film what is that movie? That movie where this character is supposed to be Mixed, but Emma Stone, played this character.
Lin: Oh my god!
O’LEARY: That Hawaiian movie?
NGUYEN: Yeah.
O’LEARY: I can’t remember what it was called either. But I saw it; it was terrible.
(NGUYEN LAUGHS)
LIN: Yeah, that’s not cool!
O’LEARY: She's supposed to be like a quarter Hawaiian, a quarter maybe Japanese, I think and like half White. But she is just all Emma Stone.
LIN: No, that's not, that’s not cool! Actually, kind of faintly related, so last summer I was trying to watch more Asian American movies, as part of a bigger quest to watch movies with Asian Americans in them. And I watched Flower Drum Song, which was, it just from the 60s, I think, it's a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. And it's super racist because any movie called Flower Drum Song doesn't exactly like, you don't feel that excited about Flower Drum Song, like, how promising [is that?]
LIN: But it was, despite, being written, it's adapted from the novel written by an Asian American. And then adapted by two White guys into a musical, so it does have some original source material. Anyways, the point being with the first film in the U.S. that had Asian Americans actually playing Americans. Or at least 80% of the roles that are Asian American in the movie are given the Asian American actors and actresses, they get it wrong. For example, they have a lot of Japanese Americans playing Chinese Americans and the two are not interchangeable like that, but the first step. The main romantic protagonist of that movie is played by Nancy Kwan. Nancy Kwan was half Chinese half White so it's interesting to see representation like that, but I feel like that's not a really good example. I think, I honestly think they chose Nancy Kwan because she was more acceptable because if you are Mixed you're more racially ambiguous and we know all that thing about Mixed babies are the most beautiful because they do look more White.
O’LEARY: Mm hmm.
LIN: That's not a good example. I think I'm rambling. Nancy Kwan was really pretty though, and truly good actress so there's that.
NGUYEN: No, no that's not at all. That was a good ramble. [LAUGHS] Well, I'm gonna jump into my first question that I asked everybody in all episodes. So, what are the takeaways that you hope our listeners will gain from this episode?
LIN: Definitely, Mixed race Asian Americans or Asian American, we are part of this community. Even if we belong to other communities or don't look like you belong, we are part of the Asian American community. We are, I am dedicated to the Asian American community for furthering it so please don't ever tell someone that they don't count if they’re Mixed. That's doesn't mean equally good. Do something else.
O’LEARY: For me, I would say that you know if you're if you're half White and half Asian or another minority, you're definitely, you’re definitely part of the Asian community 100%. But you are also part of the White community and so unlike, you know, like... something about my mom again, right? Unlike some people who are really close to us and people who are part of our community, we do enjoy privileges that those, some of our other peeps don't. And so even though it's shitty that minorities have to take on the task of explaining to people who aren't like, what that means and and the impact of living in a racist society as Mixed people. I do think that we are uniquely positioned in the place where we can be more easily speak to people from dramatically different backgrounds. And so in a way, we are like born ambassadors, and I think that we should take that role on with pride and do what we can to help connect those bridges. Because not too long ago even just us existing was not legal in a lot of places and it's really cool that, that's not, it's not a barrier anymore so I think that we should do what we can and keep pushing things forward so we can have more Mixed babies or not Mixed babies. Because everyone has an option and it's not a big deal.
(LAUGHTER)
LIN: Or no babies, birth control.
O’LEARY: Or no babies which is also great!
(LAUGHTER)
NGUYEN: Talking about Mixed babies, here's a more specific question for you two. What kinds of messages would you want to let parents of Mixed children know?
LIN: Talk to your children about their identity. Talk to the children about your identity and how you navigate your identity and make sure that they're aware that their identity might not be simple, but it's still something to be proud of and they're still something that you're willing to discuss with them. It's still something I haven’t been able to talk my mom about and that sucks. So, if you're having kids and if you're gonna have a Mixed race kids and you’re thinking about it, don't try to push that conversation away; that's a conversation that should happen a lot.
NGUYEN: And adding on top to that and what are some resources and/or spaces that do you think our communities should look into, as either as Asian American or Mixed in an American community?
O’LEARY:I think not being a super, super great at reading myself. I'm not, I'm not a super bookish person, but I found social media really to be like the most important resource for me to get connected to my Asian community, Asian American community, and Mixed community. And I think it's really important for people out there who don't have other people that they can talk to about their racial identity to like, go out and look for Facebook groups and friends on Instagram or whatever and connect. Because like this right now, I think is really awesome, and these are conversations that I wasn't able to have, even just a few years ago because I didn't think to look and so I think it's really important to just go out there and connect with people online and really take advantage of the Internet for what it should be used for, which is connecting with people and understanding each other more. And yeah and [I] also have to agree that parents should definitely- when they have Mixed race babies, think about the fact that they aren't just, they aren't just like, two people in love making a family or whatever. But that, they actually also creating these people that are gonna go through a really unique experience of having to figure out who they are and how they fit into the world. And so, yeah, I think I agree with Chloe 100%. Talk about that, and I would think, I mean, I don't know what it's like to raise kids but I would think that the earlier you start talking about this stuff, the easier it is to talk about it. Instead of now, like I always have the you know awkward like every time I go home over the holidays, I think about what part of my identity do I want to discuss with my mom and dad. So, start early!
LIN: Ha-ha.
NGUYEN: Ha-ha. How have you two embraced your identity? How have you express yourself express your pride, and like why is your journey been like? I mean, I know we've heard a lot about it it's been a long episode but just to end the episode on it awesome note, what is it like for you it's now, in the moment navigating life as an Asian American?
O’LEARY: So, like for me, I do a lot of this self-discovery, self-reflection stuff through art. And that's how I can figure it out or that's how it becomes most clear to me what I'm feeling and thinking. And lately, I've been working on a lot of work that's based off of Japanese imagery but- and I think a lot about cultural reappropriation and how as a Mixed person no matter what you do you're reappropriating the cultures that exist within you. Because your existence itself is kind of a reappropriation, in a way. And so I was thinking a lot about this, and I was like that I still just I don't know how to wrap my head around cultural reappropriation. But I was thinking as a Mixed person also you have the right to just take the bits of culture that make you up and mash it into your like, you, completely unique thing of your own. And so that's what I've been feeling like, proud of and excited about lately, that I can take all of this background and what what it is that's like made me who I am today and then turn it into something totally new, and unified. So, that's pretty cool. Yes.
LIN: For me, it’s still a journey. If I [was] an artistic person, I would I would art out my thoughts but I'm not. I mostly read. So, I try to find more books about Mixed race people and other issues that I care about. I'm still looking for a community, but I feel like, especially with each passing year I get more and more aware of myself as a Mixed race person as a person and when I was in fourth grade and I just found out I didn't know and with each year, I find more and more people like me and so I feel really hopeful about the Mixed race community. I feel like this is something even if we don't see mainstream the media representation within the next decade, I feel like it isn't it's going to keep coming up. I feel like there’s going to be more of us popping out of the woodwork saying, hey, let’s have a conversation about this. So continue to be a part of both Mixed race communities and Asian American communities and all my other little communities, so it's kind of more- I'm looking forward to the future. I'm looking forward to talking more about this I guess with other people.
NGUYEN: Yeah, this has been an awesome conversation to listen in. I love it.
LIN: Thank you so much for having us.
NGUYEN: Yeah, thank you so much for taking your time out to come, to pop up online, and to talk to us and share with not just me, but with all the listeners out there your stories and it means so much! I really hope that your narratives will touch a lot of people! Ha-ha! So, anyway, thank you, you two! So, If anyone out there would like to share some of their feedback, their thoughts, questions, anything really to Project Voice, please email at projectvoiceaaw@gmail.com or you can send us a message on Facebook or tweet us on Twitter! Thank you for listening in. Tune in next time. Bye!
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)